Arpeggio style note input - (MIDI Detect alternate method)

[carlosbiab]

Scaler 2
Feature suggestion: alternate method for (MIDI) chord detection.
Arpeggio style note MIDI input in combination with sustain pedal

I would like to suggest an alternative method of MIDI input, in which successive or arpeggiated notes, or with the help of a sustain pedal, could be detected by Scaler as a complete chord, not divided into multiple slots.

Explanation: Please, check the video.
The Scaler 2 MIDI detection mode is rich in possibilities to explore the universe of scales and chords. Play one note or various at same time, and Scaler will create one slot for each note/chord hit. However in this default Scaler MIDI detection mode is necessary to play all the notes simultaneously, which is not well suited for arpeggiated notes sent from a MIDI keyboard controller or strumming from MIDI guitar, since the succession of notes will be detected by Scaler separately creating new chord slots for each note.

The only workaround so far is to record the chords previously in DAW and edit the notes succession at the same start point, or select/delete all the previous slots before the last which would retain all notes played. Not saver time.

This kind of “latch” MIDI detection mode would allows to play notes in succession/arpeggio and/or add notes/intervals on the fly beyond of hands extension range until finish building the chord. Also it would also be possible to create multiple chord blocks in a single capture in Scaler.

Playing and building chords on a keyboard by playing the notes in cascade or with arpeggios is a way of playing as natural as playing all the notes simultaneously, only in the latter way you cannot build open or long chords without get a bunch of single note or cumulative building chords. Of course that can be done sooner or later using DAW or Scaler’s editing tools, which is great, but being able to do it at start detection would also be a great feature for piano or guitar players.

Check addendum below: https://bit.ly/374r6QE

[ClaudioPorcellana]

@carlosbiab

However, since it is necessary to play all the notes simultaneously, arpeggiated or succession of notes sent from a MIDI keyboard controller or strumming from MIDI guitar are detected by Scaler separately creating new chord slots for each note , which is Scaler’s normal MIDI detection mode.

it seems to me, but maybe I am out of topic, that complex chord as e.g. parts I tried to use here are recognized partly as real chords, and part as single notes, where the latter are useless ans must be removed before searching for useful chords in the remaining

it can explain why apparently simple song as e.g. Cream’s Strange New Brew, John Mayall’s Oh Pretty Woman, and Mountain’s Flower of evil were not recognized

[carlosbiab]

You mean AUDIO detection? what I expose here refers specifically to MIDI input. To be honest I haven’t explored audio detection much in Scaler, but it’s next on my schedule.

In any case, even nowadays it is still a serious challenge to extract information from an audio piece of music into chords, separate instruments, melodic lines, etc. and I tend to use my ear and my experience more in those cases. I have seen extraordinary advances in this regard, and I think that the audio detection in Scaler maybe is not perfect, but it is quite advanced, however, as I said, I will soon analyze it in more detail and post my comments here in the forum.

I also think that the complexity of the harmonic information, for example, is not the breaking factor, but the characteristics of the audio itself, mixing, EQ treatment, effects. As you mention Yes, Rick Wakeman (I love !!) and the results are not as expected, but it can also happen with a simple ballad by Kenny Rogers.

But maybe analyze a Bach piece performed with symphony orchestra, impeccably recorded, and that could make a difference. For me it Audio Detection is not an exact science, yet. My son was bewildered and showed me a “Lofi Hip Hop & Chill” beat … Jesssus! I think that would drive crazy to the best detection algorithm! LOL. That seems to have been recorded each track in a different DAW, located thousands of miles apart each, and started “in synchro” with smoke signals.

[ClaudioPorcellana]

@carlosbiab

You mean AUDIO detection? what I expose here refers specifically to MIDI input.

I mean both
the songs I mentioned, Cream’s Strange New Brew, John Mayall’s Oh Pretty Woman, and Mountain’s Flower of evil, were audio, but even “apparently” simple MIDIs I created in Ezkeys are difficult to translate
this possibly because Ezkeys MIDIs are closer to complex chords, arpeggios, phrases, or a mix of them

and this is why I am starting to think that starting with a simple C “circle”, I don’t know if “circle” is the proper name in music, but I mean something as C, Am, Dm7, G that I used many many times plucking my guitar, then fiddling phrases, expressions etc to see what may come out, then save good ideas immediately (as CTRL+Z is not still there and I lost a couple of loops I loved because I clicked on the wrong button before saving) can be a better option that using presets

[ClaudioPorcellana]

@carlosbiab

To be honest I haven’t explored audio detection much in Scaler, but it’s next on my schedule.

well, if you will and can, try one of the song I tried to see if you succeed: Cream’s Strange New Brew, John Mayall’s Oh Pretty Woman, Mountain’s Flower of evil, or Tom Waits Blue Valentine

I had only luck with Curved Air’s Marie Antoinette that was almost perfectly recognized

[MusicStudent]

@ClaudioPorcellana

Curved Air’s Marie Antoinette

OMG, what a blast from the past. I have not seen a reference to this favorite band of mine from the early to mid 70’s since, well, I don’t think I have ever seen a reference to CA. Back in the day when everything was on vinyl.

[ClaudioPorcellana]

if I retrieve my copy of Print Directory so I can print the list on MP3 I have, I suspect you’ll have multple blasts from the past
about Curved Air I have these 2
the first one is a live album

[MusicStudent]

I am scrambling now to find the first and live album you have shown above. What I am looking for is not on the Midnight Wire and I think it must have been the first live album which I had on a mix tape provided to me by my friend Lenny. The distant memory of songs gone by, which hide in the recesses of my brain, allows me to recall a small bit of a single song which mesmerized me in the early 70s. I recall the song had a “Gong” which when played mixed orchestral percussion into a rock tune and blew me away. You have now re-sparked this memory and it now haunts me. But your picture of the Live Album I think is the clue to where it hides. Now the hunt begins…

[carlosbiab]

I devoted some hours doing more detailed testing of the AUDIO capture in Scaler 2.1.2 and got mixed results. Since I play both instruments, I started by trying to send clean, dry external audio without effects directly from my (real) guitars and pianos from my Roland XV-5050 MIDI module, and also audio from different VSTi electric and acoustic pianos.

First of all, my report is related to this post topic: the input of arpeggiate chords style, Conclusion: the same happens with MIDI or Audio, Scaler create a serie of singles notes slots, although with Audio detection the fast arpeggio sometimes works and sometimes it detects all notes in a single slot chord. But it’s not the idea (please check the video above)

Now about audio detection:
The first thing I could see with guitars (electric and acoustic) is that chords with tensions 9th, 11, 13 and simple alterations: 7th (+5), 7th (-9) 7th (-5) 7th + 9) do not achieve be detected accurately or nothing at all in any position on the fretboard. Also even the bass was omitted many times for slightly more complex chords.

Regarding the piano with different sounds, electric and acoustic, the first thing I noticed is that in many cases there is no detection of the bass and very imprecise of tensions and alterations, suspended, etc. it’s very much a random base here.
I try with two songs from your list, Cream Strange Brew and Mountain’s Flower of Evil, and also with several songs from my lists: Bodhisatva (Steely Dan) The World is a Ghetto (George Benson) Michelle (original, Beatles) The King Will Come (Wishbone Ash) Blind Eyes (Uriah Heep) Don’t Start Now (Dua Lipa) (testing bass pop beats), Spain (Chick Corea), Sylvia (Focus). and more.

In general lines the results with the songs were more defined and precise if what you are looking for is a general appreciation of the chords used. It works with a certain degree of precision on pop songs, and is very useful !! but in more complex material like jazz, fusion, the audio detection hasn’t got a clue. What I don’t understand is why I get such mediocre results using isolated guitar and piano audio with no band or backing.I don’t think I’m doing something wrong, as I am using the same established recording standards that I have used for years. Anyway I very open to listen advices or tips about.

Test done in Reaper 6.14, FL Studio, with standard pro audio interfaces (M-Audio, Boss) Windows 7 and 10. Scaler 2.1.2 E. guitar. Gibson Les Paul, A. Guitar: Giannini, Boss COSM steel string guitar. All dry not efx and a tested with efx (same results aparently)

[ClaudioPorcellana]

Gibson Les Paul

WOW
I guessed right tht the guitar you used to funky my base
I love that guitar and always wanted it, but it was always out of my reach

I only had a chance to pluk it when a friend of mine lended it to me for a week to fix an electrical contact issue

and here you see that Gibson, close to a custom guitar I tried to build with my hand, brass bridges and other knick-knacks included, and below is the best acoustic guitar I had

[carlosbiab]

Beautiful guitars, Claudio! yes, I use my LP for your funk, and she turned a hot there…bitch! LOL !

I was able to buy this guitar and others years ago when things were going well in my country, now under the extreme dictatorship it has really been a feat not to sell my precious instruments and equipment to survive, even though I have been about to do it, long story! . Before I used to be a successful producer in my country, now everything is misery and oppression, without electricity or internet for 10 to 18 hours every day and many shortcomings more, you learn to take care of what you have. I know you get me.

[ClaudioPorcellana]

OUCH, emoticons here are unable to express my pain for your situation, considering how much living in Brasil was “alegre” until a few years ago
take care

[carlosbiab]

Thank you, this is Venezuela, Brasil is our south border.

[ClaudioPorcellana]

ooops!
worst than what I thought
a big hug

[carlosbiab]

Other reflections and facts in reference to the feature I suggested in this topic.

It is important to note that Scaler can detect all the notes entered in arpeggio style, that is, not simultaneously in a single hit, but it does. This is achieved by keeping the sustain pedal ON, Scaler will create successive slots according to how the notes are entered one by one, but finally the last slot will contain all the notes of the built chord until the sustain pedal is released or all the notes that player fingers keep hold pressed until release them, which is wonderful for creating variations of a single chord. Please, watch video addendum below.

But if we only want the last chord that contains all the included and extended notes, as another workaround we will have to delete all the previous slot detected, which is the reason for my feature suggestion, this can be a bit cumbersome and time consuming when enter a progression using style arpeggios to build a single slot for each chord directly, simply and without interruptions, and without impairing the spontaneous chord creation and playing process.