Keys-lock doing both Chord Notes + Scale Notes simultaneously?

Hey All,

Might there be a way to get Keys-lock to do both Chord Notes and Scale Notes similtaneously or some logical version thereof?

So I can easily find the individual notes of my progression chords but play my own live Arpeggios or broken chords AND noodle around outside for accompanying bass notes or top line melody in scale …all LIVE.

I’m experiementing with 2 Scalers running, complex DAW routing and all sorts of I/O tricks but can’t quite get there.

Does this make sense at all?
(my head hurts thinking a ways to do it :exploding_head:)

P.S. I don’t want to use Scalers internal Performance features

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My head hurts thinking about It too and it kind of makes sense but really hard to know exactly what you are trying to do. First steps if it helps is:

  • In Keys Lock have you tried ‘Chord Notes’ setting and played with the ‘Chord Mute’ option (designed to mute the trigger chords so you can play freely around it).
  • Have you played with the ‘Chords Only’ Options in any of the articulations, expressions advanced parameters?

Thanks Davide.

Yes, tried all those but this is the aim:

1. Pre Program the Chord progression’s “1 note triggers” in DAW (muted as you sugest)

2. Then playback with Chord note Keys-Lock so I can arpeggiate or break up those chords as I wish (while encouraging a truly Human live feel) AND have a type of “Scale note Key-lock” also available, to tinkle with (in scale) Bass notes or top line Melodies at the same time.

So Basically you get the focused chord and a greater (useable) range of accompanying notes for true improvization but with the beauty of Scaler’s modus operandi.
Could be a Keys-Lock mode that includes Chords (on 1st few notes) but the rest representing those Scale notes. I Imagine like a real Pianist, playing full chords on Right hand while playing base notes on left or full chords on left hand and melody on right. As close as you can get to the real thing I guess. :thinking:

(The Chord notes Key-Lock isn’t as useful as it might be beyond the original chord notes themselves. I’ve never found much to the right hand side of those notes).

Hope thats a bit clearer. :crossed_fingers:

We have some big changes coming soon which may help but in the meantime have you played with MMO (Multi Midi Output) so you can have each note of each chord go to a different output and from there do what you want with?

Intriguing! Will keep an eye. Thanks D

MiR, Hey! I’ve been hoping to figure out how to do this for some time, too! I tried it back when I bought Scaler2, thinking the same thing you mentioned. I was watching Davide’s video, and this might be the thing! I was afraid that it was already possible to do this with Scaler, but I didn’t understand Scaler well enough.

Ironically, I set aside scaler and music for quite some time and only came back here to read when I heard about updates! Hoping above all hope, I also specifically started searching for someone trying to do what I tried to do way back when.

I’d like to keep in touch with you, or at least follow this thread here, as I work towards once again setting up my equipment so I can try to see if I can now do and play with what I feel in my gut & ear and a bit of improvision using the miracles of science and tech! At least, I expect and hope this is what you’re talking about. So, I believe I know exactly what you’re looking for and can say… Yes! Me too! I want it!

It’s one thing to know enough of the theory to understand what’s going on and what’s needed, and another to have the years of skill to do this without help.

I suspect you’re at least like me in that you can count on your ear to tell you when you do something you like, love and sounds great and then repeat the pattern that made it. But, to previously have the freedom of creating those chord sequences, then being able to pick out patterns inside of the key and notes that harmonize with those chords (having Scaler let me focus on harmonizing notes non-key, non-chord sour/“bad”(sic-there are no bad) notes, but the freedom to experiment constraining useable notes to the chords and key while using one’s ear as a guide for base & melodies, and as Davide says, while also being able to assign instruments to channels. Whoo, my head spins… but I get it! But, am I missing something like Scaler could do what I think you’re asking (what I’m asking) and now what’s really available is the ability to assign different instruments? I think not, I think what Scaler does is use some predefined patterns to pick out the notes related to the chords and the key. But, what you and I want is to have it confine those usable notes to a certain range of the keyboard, and confine those “C major” keys to the actual key based on the chord progression so we can plink out tunes on it, letting out ear play with the octave assigned for bass notes, or octave for a melody, and record those via midi, and start building layers but mostly improvised with my choices constrained to the chord progressions and the Major or Minor keys therein and playable on the white or white and black keys covering one octave (we choose).

At least, that’s the way I work on the keyboard (typing). If I could play music as well as type and code, I’d be a virtuoso! But I had found myself here at 70, just waiting and hoping for the tech to catch up; then what?
Has that day finally arrived? Can I finally use the tech to do something special with music?

OK, that was a bit of stream-of-consciousness, but since I do not have all the technical words I need to express what I hope to do creatively… I threw everything, including the pot and utensils, into the words and hoped some would stick and say what I wanted and hoped it would say! :slight_smile:

Thanks Cyber,

Yes I feel your words there. Scaler is close but just short of the mark in this case. The Multi Midi out is good but not for what we are reaching for.
Keeping a close eye on updates to see where it goes.
Lets stay tuned!

Yep, I can see where what he shows in the video will be needed if he’s going where we’re hoping. The video shows how the voicings will come in: Base, Tenor, Alto, and Soprano, to give examples. :wink: Instead of the patterns he gives and shows us, which are plentiful, available and excellent in their own way, especially with orchestral compositions! We just need Scaler to map those viable note selections restricted by voice/range to the MIDI keyboard, which will let us pick the notes, make the patterns, and record or play them live if desired! Right? :slight_smile:

I apologize if I confused things a bit. I often use Key, like the key of C, or any other key, when I mean scales… and yep, it even confuses me. So, when I say bind the keys, from now on that means binding Scaler to the midi, and then what I’m looking to do is improvisation by having Scaler bind the white keys on the midi keyboard to that scale or mode for improvisation and this is where I fall short, make viable keys white keys and the black keys for any odd outliers sounds or those less likely to be played, or lock in for major or minor notes as a mode. And my knowledge of theory fails me here for what I want to understand and say. (sigh) :wink:

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Yes somethig like that. Obviously Chords can contain any number of notes but whatever the case it could work like below for an example on a 5note Chord and change dynamically to a 4note or triad and so on:

  • The current triggered (5note) chord is mapped and begins on a “C” of the keyboard and its consequtive Keys until fullfilled.

  • The rest of the entire unused keyboard could be In Scale notes, Harmonic notes or all sorts of goodies we could select from.

  • We could have options to move those “binded” chord notes below or above the original binded trigger notes if we want to add bass note improv or above to find melody or in some loical way if overall realestate is an issue on 49, 61 note keyboards.

Thats my thoughts from 30,000 feet so I’m not sure of the details on the ground. :thinking:

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30,000 ft? Is this a reference to a 5 Mile High Highball :tropical_drink:? An alcoholic beverage if you’re being literal, or is it a different kind of high? :japanese_goblin::dash: :eyes:

Or is it a third meaning: The domain where dreamers dream: 30,000 feet :face_in_clouds:?

Our ears can handle great heights, but we can’t build an airplane, name the parts, or define the math and science behind it in detail! I’m a Metrologist. I’ve worked for DoD, NIST & NASA. I’ve got a scientific mind and I’m a coder with a good ear. :nerd_face: I’ve had a lifetime of technology & physics coupled with an emotional love affair with music and, a desire to play, and a logical desire to understand the theory. With only so many hours in a day, at 70, my only honest conclusion is: “I’ve forgotten more than I know!” :woozy_face:

Defining all sorts of Goodies!
Nice term: “In-Scale Notes” nails it pretty close. Davide says the chords define the scale and vice versa. I also know the chords define the mode and I think the mode can have a key :musical_score:, a word synonymous with scale. However, for clarity, the only key we should talk about is the one on an interface device because the concept is ambiguous at best when it comes to electronics and music. Scale is definitive, and a key is on your keyboard :keyboard: :musical_keyboard:.

Defining Improv Binds
I think we want some kind of a new variant of “Passages.” Let’s call it “Improv” mode. Passages of a sort but without "playing or auto-playing note patterns. (what are Scaler Passages w/o auto-playing? Improvisation!)

Defining Binds
Chord Binding
Of course, on the keyboard, we’d want the first existing 8-note Improv chording (Scaler2)
Passages
Passages Binding is the 2nd or an optional 8-note Improv, or more chording.(Scaler2.9?)

Building a New Binding Features:
Improv Note Binding :musical_note:
I think “Improv” is Passages without the auto-playing. Bound to chord patterns with individually bound keys! Improv should bind individual notes to the remaining available octaves, or in selected octaves selected and defined by octave ranges in the defining scales of the song) e.g., bass, melodic, baritone, tenor, etc. :saxophone: :trumpet: :guitar: :violin:
IOW it could use all the remaining keys for binding as one or through the creation of bind groups, like families. Grouped by “in scale”, Harmonic, Modal, Families or Groups of notes. Multi-choice (if the groups overlap, work together) or by family, if conceptually sound to theory.

The notes in Scale to be bound without be all notes viable & usable and In Scale, in mode, any notes or families of notes bound with playable defined as all theoretically viable groups bound by theory. I think this would be moving in the direction we want, right?

You said: “The rest of the entire unused keyboard could be assigned and bound to In Scale notes, Harmonic notes or all sorts of goodies we could select from.”

I’m just trying to understand how to say what the term “all sorts of goodies” means from a theoretical perspective! That’s where my theory fails me.

Defining Goodies: (I think this is the ultimate goal!) :slight_smile:
I know the notes are there, and my ear can tell me what works and what doesn’t, but I don’t know which part of music theory “goodies” falls under. Are they moving targets that depend on where the music moves: chords, scales, keys, modals, transitions? It’s possible “Goodies” can mean many, many things!

I know if I’m playing a chord with my left hand… I can hit every remaining note on the keyboard and say whether it sounds good. But I also know whether that note works depends on what notes come before, what notes come after, and where the notes are going. The ear can suffer many slights on the path to a worthy destination, but is it all defined in music theory? I don’t know.

My Conclusion
If we try to define rules that create goodies and during improv, a bound and defined note fails, where is the fault? Is it in the definition or the path to the destination? Rules do not create Genius. We seek theory rules to liberate the ear and restrain obvious, overt errors. Is it possible that we already have the best tool for that? The ear and a well-tuned instrument. I think we could do better, but I lack the theory. For now, it will have to be my ear and the ability to record improv, clean it up and save it! :slight_smile:

PS: I’m burning out trying to define what I cannot. Thanks for your patience! :crazy_face:

Thanks for expanding on those thoughts. Yes, I too do not have the theory to define it (well) to be honest.
I often here professional players talk about habits or falling into certain shapes with their fingers. Good or bad?, I don’t know but at least they have the theory literally at their finger tips.

Music is a form of language as we know, so how would we rule out using certain words (i.e notes) at certain times and are we not impoverishing our pallet by doing so? :thinking:
It’s a tricky subject but there should be some headway we can make towards more useful options.

Definitely the Chords notes starting on C until fulfilled and the rest as “In Scale” is a must do.
At least that covers most other possibilities I would imagine although might take some extra wandering around. Buy hey don’t Pro players have to do this at some point too?

Welcoming anyone to help define possible options…

Cheers!

You can achieve some crazy Midi Routing with the Free Kushview Element plugin host.

It can work in Standalone or in your Daw. Take a look on their website and watch some Youtube videos to see it action.

Also using MIDI Polysher within Kushview Element connecting to other VSTs can enhance Kushview Element,…plus it has its own built in Midi Modules.

Kushview Element may or may not help, but it’s worth a look :slight_smile:

PM’ed you. (I think?)

Thanks will check this out.

I am enjoying this conversation and it is coming at a perfect time so thank you for making the effort and sharing your thoughts and feedback :pray: :slightly_smiling_face:

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Hey Studio,

MidiPolysher looks like a horrible installation process although its free. Not sure I want to test it, so just looking at videos and I see how you can use to split the keyboard. Ok understood.
However, can you confirm that it can be configured in such a way that it can feed both the split channels to only 1 VSTi instrument?

Cheers

Hi MiR,

Did you mean Kushview Element was a horrible installation? I am on Windows 10 and don’t remember it being difficult. The website is a bit confusing, because there are paid versions of Kushview Element to support development.

Click on either link which matches your OS and a installer file will download.

Not sure how the installation of MidiPolysher went to be honest. I just wanted to download it, to use inside Kushview Element.

I am not 100% sure if it can feed both the split channels to only 1 VSTi instrument in a DAW. I only used it in Kushview Element to split the keyboard, that’s why I mentioned Kushview Element, it may do what you want. You have to think out of the box with it. It only goes in one insert slot of your DAW, then you load VST’s in it, or Standalone to try out routing possibilties.

I did ask the developer how many instances can you have in your DAW. He said ‘Has many as your computer can handle’

This is the download link for Kushview Element version 0.46.6 is the Free One

Kushview Element Standalone

You have to watch Youtube Videos about Kushview Element for setting up. Once you get the hang of it, it is easy to use!

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Just thinking aloud here. Probably bumping into things I can’t see.
:face_with_head_bandage:
Scaler’s “Suggest” feature has some sort of theory intelligence built in right?.
Trying to get a better understanding on what its doing in the background.

I wonder if/how it (or smiliar) could also be ported to a live Keys-Lock mode in some way… :thinking:

I don’t understand either
It is just a VST2 so what a problem can be?

And, it’s almost essential in my workflow to avoid hitting e.g. Stop buttons when I drive some plugins, UJAMs for example, with Scaler

I only took a quick glance and saw I have to register, get a key and then download etc for the freebie and was put off. I’m sures it great.

Can you confirm these plugins can funnell the split channels back into 1 Instrument chanel?