Modulating from F♯ Major to C minor

Been prepping for a set with another player. We’ve decided to have two contrasting sections, one in F♯ Major, the other in C minor. While practicing, I was thinking about using the D♯ minor chord to lead to the C minor chord. That’s one of the simplest options, using Scaler 2’s “mediants”.
Several other options exist, of course. Another one using “mediants” goes to B major and G♯ minor.
Also tried a few things with the "Progression” preset. Sent the result to my set partner.

After the fact, thought about using NRT.
An easy way, there, is N (B minor on F♯), L (G Major), and N again (C minor on G).

I’m sure there are better ways. I prefer the simpler ones (only a chord or two to transition). And voice leading matters to me.

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After someone mentioned diminished sevenths, I’ve found yet another way to transition between F♯ Major and C minor. Using a D°7 to go from C♯ 7 (the V7 in F♯ Major) to Dø7 (iiø7 in C minor).

Didn’t find a way to get such suggestions in S2. The way I did it was in… another chorder plugin which allowed me to play with a few possibilities until I found one which only required one note to change. Elegant and nice-sounding, IMVHO.

(I could have guessed it from Jacob Collier’s Diminished Seventh Modulation. I kinda knew it’d have to do with the dominant seventh from the major and the half-diminished seventh in the minor. Which fully-diminished chord would fit? How would the voice leading work? Easiest to perceive this by having direct access to the “chord shapes” involved. So, that could have been done on a polyphonic instrument, especially an isomorphic one, if I knew my chords really well. Pianocentrists probably find it easy to do on a piano-style keyboard, with quite a bit of experience. Some DAWers would probably draw chords directly, in root position, and try to fit each of the three fully-diminished chords of the 12TET tuning system. Me? I like to use a tool which helps me avoid some mistakes.)

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Too bad that @jjfagot didn’t come back yet

I am sure he could be able to get your points and give further insight
I’ll try again to call him


Please tell @jjfagot that he is sorely missed from the forum.


I told him to come back many times
He replied “after my retirement I’ll come back”
He retired, but didn’t come back
I’ll call him again :grinning:


Well, at this point, my setmate wants to do the simplest thing possible during tonight’s show. It’ll work great, I’m sure.

The rest sounded like a whole album of Jazz theory. I prefer experimentations, which are likely to happen anyway. Not sure Scaler 2 itself helps me that much in this. Just one among diverse tools.

Hello friends. My apologies for taking so long to appear here. It is very true that Claudio wrote to me several times and I told him that I would return when I retired, but first because of illness and then because I am quite busy restoring my old instrument because I bought another very good one, and I must sell the previous one so that the expense is reduced a little. bit. Well, something always happened to delay me.
I have also missed you a lot, and I am going to try to appear here at least once a day and read the interesting contributions that you always make.
As for the modulation from F# major to C minor, I think it is not very natural, hehe. The most normal thing is to modulate towards neighboring tones, and in this case it is much more normal to modulate towards C# minor, of course. I don’t dislike the versions that Enkerli provides at all. I start testing things and tonight I’ll send something. A hug to all


Nice to see you @jjfagot and an appropriate post for your re-entry!


Hello, Enkerli.
I suppose my answer comes a little late, but I assure you that I liked trying it anyway.
The first thing I would like to comment on is that to modulate to any key (whatever it may be), and you know this well, you have to find common notes in the chords to be able to do it. In our case, Scaler (my favorite plugin) doesn’t make it easy, since F# M is assigned Gb M (it’s a matter of harmony: the same black key on the keyboard works for F# and Gb). When I was very young there was a professor at the Valencia Conservatory of Music, Vicent Asencio, who wouldn’t even let me eat my sandwich to explain these things to me: “they always add up to 12, because 12 are semitones: if you have 3 flats in the key signature, C minor, for example and you have to go to F# M, 6 sharps in the key signature, or 6 flats, simplify” because F#=Gb and the question is simpler: you have to go from 6 flats to 3 flats." That teacher loved me, and now that I am more or less the age at which he taught me, I thank him from my heart.
After observing the chords, with the possible notes that may coincide to be able to move from one place to another, it is a matter of how you like it best. Obviously it is a sudden change, one of those that, on the other hand, allow the atmosphere to change between scenes, for example in filmmusic (I like this).
On the other hand, these changes may stop being so abrupt depending on (as you said) the vocal conduction, and also on whether the chords sound in a block or arpeggiated, or with one of the other great performers that Scaler offers us.
I leave here a set with several examples that have occurred to me in case they can be of help to you.
Fa#M_Cm.xml (68.5 KB)


Hi @jjfagot

Welcome back, I hope you have recovered from your illness.

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Thanks, Edd.
I’m fine, although I still have trouble breathing well. Sometimes it’s a little overwhelming, but I’m getting better.

And this is my new bassoon (bassoon=fagot). Is a Heckel bassoon, made in Wieesbaden-Brietbrich. The Heckel bassoon is more or less the Roll Roice for the bassoon wordl. I’m very happy


Thanks for doing so!
“2 Dynamic” is by far my favourite. Especially the second part.

Simple and elegant.

It could have worked quite well with our playing style (moving from “acoustic and physically modelled woodwinds, with distorted drawbar organ pad and such” to something a bit more techno-like).

And no worries about the short delay. IIRC, we ended up with just a quick silence between the two parts of our set. (As far as I was concerned, I just needed to know when we had made the switch, since I was using the Sylphyo’s transposition; it’s not my main instrument and the fingerings are different enough that I’m not comfortable improvising on it in every key).

As for the ways the Scaler plugin can help… There’s some kind of User Experience story, here, based on the ways we actually use it. Chances are, even if we’ve watched @davide’s tutorials, we end up doing things differently. We each have our own expectations, based on prior experiences. It’s similar to having every use case being an edge case. Ways to solve that revolve partly around providing features which are at the precise level of being generic and specific enough to be useful.
(Some plugins are so “idiosyncratic” that you really have to be in the dev’s head to use them. Scaler isn’t like that. Still, there are ways to design a plugin’s overall experience to nudge in a given direction while allowing for some flexibility. It’s an art, which comes upstream from the typical “IxD” work, with its own arts+science background.)

Having a tool, within Scaler, which eases the process of finding common notes would be really useful in a variety of cases. Present me options in a way which makes it clear what the effect would be like. (If there are common notes, it’s probably best to keep them in the same voices. So… yeah, “Minimize Movement”. It’s more than that, though. I’d like some indication this chord only requires one note to change from the current one, as opposed to a chord which requires two. Makes a big difference, to me.)
Now, I get that some of the suggestions we get are based on that. Yet it’s not obvious which ones these are unless we think through them, at which point the help Scaler provides gets more limited.

Sorry for the meanderings… It’s the way my brain works. As it turns out, it frequently becomes more useful through interactions with other brains.

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I agree that it would be nice if Scaler also had that function in terms of suggesting chords according to common notes that could be linked while minimizing the movement of the voices. Well, Scaler already has very good functions, but I think this is one of the places where users can suggest/request things. For example, I find it interesting that it names the scales in two possible ways. Let me explain: instead of Gb Major only, offer the option of choosing F# Major. Yes, it is the same, but the chords and nomenclature of the notes they contain are different and can be confusing. (It is curious that for the relative minor tone it is called F# minor and for the major it is Gb Major).
Scaler has those things and I suppose it is because it is aimed at many people, who, as you say, have different musical and scientific training, different priorities and different styles in which it is applied. I’m glad you liked one of the modulations I suggested. All the best

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Hello jjfagot
Forgive my complete ignorance but I am not able to view your xml file. Could you give me some advice?
Thanks and regards.

Hello, Neptuno_73, and wellcome
It’s strange that you can’t open it in Scaler.
Enkerli was able to open it.
Simply place the file in the Scaler Sets. It is important, in order to locate the sets that you are making or collecting from other colleagues, that you place them in the Sets folder, within the folder where you have installed Scaler.
On my computer, I have it in F:\Scaler\Sets
Thus, when you enter Scaler, from the User tab you can open them

Not quite the same but you can select chords and right click and find ‘common tones’ but limited in what you can explore. (see attached)

Maybe we could have an ‘explore chords’ as well as the current ‘explore scales’ when selecting a chord or chords? The voice grouping will help with the rest (particularly with some incoming features)

You can click on the key and switch to its enharmonic equivalent in the scale selector (see attached)


Hello jjfagot
It’s not that I couldn’t but that I didn’t know how to do it.
Now I know thanks to your answer. I am very new to this and my learning curve is somewhat high.
Thanks again and regards.
By the way, did you study in Valencia, Spain? My three grandchildren are now studying at the new conservatory, Miguel Iturbi. I suspect that due to the age I assume you are, you don’t know it.
I reiterate my greetings.


Hello Neptune_73.
It is normal that you ask to know. This forum is the right place for it.
I did not know the new Iturbi Conservatory, although I have had fellow students who were professors there, but they are already retired, like me.
I congratulate you because having 3 grandchildren studying music must be a great pleasure.


Indeed! And @davide is among the rare devs who actually listen to users.

Agreed about enharmonic spellings. It’s not that they’re unavailable (as Davide later pointed out a way to reach them). It’s about discoverability.
Like you, I was surprised that the plugin would list F♯ minor but not F♯ Major. There’s surely a logic to this which escapes me.
In fact, there are several approaches to nomenclature. AFAICT, there’s a strong tendency in some Jazz circles to only use the♭ versions of different keys (with ♯ for alterations, of course). I’d relate that to habits from our woodwinds which play either in B♭ (tenor/sop saxes, trumpet, clarinet, etc.) or E♭ (alto/baritone saxes…). Of course, if we play in concert A♯ / B♭ , we can technically call it either way. Still easier for me as a sax player to transpose that to C or G depending on which instrument I’m playing than thinking about B♯ or F𝄪.
The way I first learnt things (in middle-school), we played A♭ through C♯, in the cycle of fifths. (So, in my native language, la♭, mi♭, si♭, fa, do, sol, ré, la mi, si, fa♯, do♯.) In college, I’ve spent a whole lot of time playing D♯ minor and I never thought of it as E♭ minor.

(Of course, we won’t get into the differences between these tonalities when we get outside of 12TET. Pianocentrism is so strong that people are adamant about enharmonic spellings pointing to the exact same note.)

Really good to know! Never discovered this, I don’t think.

:heart: :heartbeat: :blue_heart: :hearts: :love_letter: :cupid: :green_heart: :purple_heart: :sparkling_heart:

IOW: yes, please?

I was already using Scaler when I got quite interested in figuring out which chords were included in a given scale. It came from my experience with what I call my “noodling scale”, at least on a sax-like woodwind (G, G ♯/A♭, B, C, C♯, D, F). Which chords fit well with this scale? If it’s about chords we can form with these notes, there’s quite a range… which is difficult to explore through normal means. The chromaticism implies some possibilities which aren’t that obvious if you just stack thirds. Indeed, I find a similar phenomenon with wellknown scales, as you can build augmented and diminished chords outside of the stacked thirds. (Visually striking on the Exquis, which uses the Dualo keyboard: stacks of minor thirds and major thirds make diagonals of lighted pads.)

By happenstance, a friend’s son working at a café where I was working on this combinatorics problem then told me about Set Theory applied to such issues. My noodling scale is a Pitch Class Set and we can describe each chord type as a PCS. There’s an easy way to calculate which PCS is a superset or subset of another one. There are online calculators for these.
What’s more difficult is figuring out where I can find these chords in the scale.
For instance, I get that 7-19 (Forte number for my noodling scale) has three 3-11 trichords (which happens to cover both major and minor triads). Cool. Where are they located?

A whole other side of this is that scales can go really well with chords which have different notes from those included in the scale. The best-known example is the Blues scale, as played on dominant seventh chords. Don’t think Scaler is likely to suggest the C Blues scale on a C Blues (C7, F7, and G7 chords). There are too many modes which give a 4/4 match with C7, for instance. And if I play all three chords, it first suggests modes of “Jazz minor” (melodic minor ascending).

Could be really neat if Scaler helped me figure out how chords and scales fit together when they’re not diatonic.



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