Scaler with UJAM guitars and no hassle, how?

Scaler 2 General Discussion
61

I realise that this thread is months old by now, but I thought I’d post here with my question, as it relates directly to a UJAM plugin and Scaler. Otherwise - Mod(s) please just bump this to a new thread.

I’ve just started using UJAM’s excellent (IMO) nylon strung guitar plugin VG-SILK (insane sale price currently on PluginBoutique).

All’s going fine insofar as I have Scaler at the front, and a set of chords in Pattern 1. Allowing for the peculiar design of UJAM (in that nothing below C3 is a playable note) I have no issues at all playing all of the chords in Pattern 1 by pressing C1 etc. on my controller.

My problem begins once I start laying chords into Pattern 2. It’s perfectly possible I’m missing a setting or something but…

unlike Pattern 1, where each key on my controller triggers the next chord in the pattern, in Pattern 2 pressing C1 now insists on triggering the UJAM plugin at C2 i.e. I cannot replay a chord, instead the first chord in Scaler Pattern 2 now triggers UJAM’s own pattern player.

What I need to be able to do is lay out about five or six Patterns in Scaler (Pattern 1 - Pattern 6) and have EACH chord in EACH pattern trigger that chord in UJAM. I cannot seem to manage this at present.

Any advice or tips anyone?

62

Hi

If I remember well, all versions 1 have a bug:
nevertheless the Scaler settings or the filter you put before the UJAM guitar, the Stop button is hit at each bar, ruining any pattern you or Scaler could drive

This is why I always hated UJAMs before they updated some guitar to Version 2

So, the reason to buy this Version 1 tool discounted, is that you’ll be able to have the Version 2 discounted when devs launch it

2 Likes
63

Thank you for this ClaudioP,

I’m pleased at least that it’s not ‘me’ and it’s a shortcoming of the plugin.

You caused me to look and I was a little surprised… despite this thing only cost me 19 euros in a sale, and the sounds themselves are great, it’s Version 1.0.0 from 2017!!

There is a lesson learned here for me (I’m happy to learn. I’m very new to all of this) which is to look in a little more depth before buying. There was a demo version available, which I did install first, but somehow the limitations weren’t evident.

I entirely agree that if one can, playing a guitar is often quicker than all this messing about!!

What I’m now doing is re-scoring the entire piece without using Scaler’s “Pattern” at all, and just using Scaler to show me the chord structure for each part, which I write in manually… Lessons learned and all that.

Further to other comments above, I really like NI stuff, but I find them a bit expensive.

The particular issue I have is, I think, actually Scaler. I’m guessing that in fact each bank of Patterns" is stored sequential to the previous. So in fact the first slot in Pattern 2 isn’t in fact C1 at all, it’s now C2 - which is why the UJAM plugin is behaving as it is?

64

In another post today, I dropped a reply from UJAM devs, and they say the Version 2 of Silk will be launched by the end of this year, so let us be hopeful :grinning:

65

Nice. However, I feel that some of what I said about this also being Scaler still applies.

Very happy for someone to correct me if not :slight_smile:

66

Actually I hate them because the Kontakt engine is a bloatware IMHO
And, even worse, you cannot have good results if you aren’t very skilled at keyboards, due to the fact you have to activate articulations while playing
So I bought 2 Sunburst and 1 Orangetree guitars and I re-sold both after a few weeks

I also dropped a post with my critics

https://forum.scalerplugin.com/t/my-kontakt-native-plugins-at-35-each-or-the-matching-amount-of-usd/13840/5

67

If you mean that the culprit is Scaler, I think is not the case
for the simple reason that UJAM Versions 2 work perfectly with Scaler

moreover, if you use e.g. MIDI Polisher to block the UJAM Stop button in C2, this button will be hit anyway; it means to me that the UJAM is bugged, not Scaler

I think it was developed to be used by both hands (and possibly a pedal), not to be driven by another plugin

But note that I am an amateur, with limited technical skills :grin:

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68

neat! Many thanks, happy to stand corrected.

“MIDI polisher” ? There’s clearly SO MUCH more I’ve yet to discover :slight_smile:

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69

You can find MIDI Polysher here — MIDI Polysher

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70

Thank you for that.

Having read what it’s for etc. I’ll pass thanks because my controller (Akai MPK mini MK3) comes with a program that allows me to do exactly this anyway, and I can then select my own choice of mappings/splits as I need.

Seem to be getting slightly off-topic… but, IIRC it means that I can use the “Program Change” function also on the controller to select this program as needed - despite of course it’s probably desirable to just leave it as default.

If I’m not misunderstanding the entire concept, some of the VSTs I use also have their own control mapping. So I can either remap those to fit my current layout, or write a new layout to match their default mapping. I presume this would be the intended behaviour?

71

If I understand you, yes, that is the intended behavior.

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72

Hi, @alan9990

I drop here a simple workflow for you to test

Set a series of chords in Scaler using Voice Grouping C3-B4 and send the Scaler output to the VG SILK
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Cattura A
Cattura A516×896 51.7 KB

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Then drop a transposer tool before VG SILK set to +2 octaves, so the Scaler output falls into the VG SILK Chords area
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Cattura1
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Now drop an instrument track that listens to your keyboard, and send its output to VG SILK
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Cattura2
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Then move octaves down in your keyboard so to send the output to the 2 areas below
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Cattura3

Now start your DAW and play notes with your hands on, while Scaler sends chords

Let me know

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73

Wow, thanks for taking the time on this - very interesting!! :slight_smile:

A couple of questions/comments, if you don’t mind:

I’m guessing the caps are from Bitwig? Looks like it. Relevant to my remarks and workflow.

I see that you are using an instrument-per-track approach. How does this differ functionally from what I did, which is to add Scaler, then attach VG-Silk to its output? What I achieve is that anything coming out of Scaler goes directly into the UJAM plugin? So my chords trigger the sounds because I simply set the chords I chose in Scaler into the <Octave: 4> setting i.e. C4 and it triggers it perfectly.

None of this is to say that your approach above isn’t helpful, I’m just trying to work out why and how it differs and what extra it can achieve?

My ‘issue’ has been that when storing chord patterns in Scaler, the moment I load Pattern 2 and up, it appears to now trigger the “wrong” part of VG-Silk, despite I’m now feeling that this is in fact how Scaler works, rather than a fault in the UJAM. I do note your earlier comments in that all V2 work fine!

You have given me a good solution though, because what I could do is to simply load up multiple instances of Scaler, each on its own track, and direct all outputs into VG-Silk. Then, I simply put my chosen chords into Pattern 1 in each instance (different patterns per Scaler instance), and play away!

To be clear: the final step in your suggested workflow above is the thing I’m trying to avoid i.e. I DO NOT want my keyboard to trigger UJAM inside the C1 - C2 range.

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I try to put it simpler :grinning:

I love jamming on an accompaniment base, so with my workflow, Scaler sends chords in the C3-B4 area, BUT the transposer tool sends them 2 octaves higher, so perfectly in the VG SILK Chords area

Then, drop an empty Instrument track linked to your keyboard, and send its output to VG SILK

Now, I have a 49-keys keyboard, so I must hit the Octave up/down buttons to reach the Common phrases and Style phrases areas of the VG SILK GUI, but you can skip this step if you have a larger keyboard

Then hit the keys on your keyboard that fall in the Common phrases and Style phrases areas, and job done

You can also select Latch, so that you can hit Pattern keys only when you need a change

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

On the other hand, If you want to drive VG SILK automatically, you clearly need a 2nd Scaler instance synced and properly transposed to hit the Common phrases and Style phrases areas

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75

This has been very interesting and informative, and I appreciate the time and help.

I have however given up on this particular idea. I’ll explain why:

1: Misunderstanding on my part.
2: unnecessary complexity plus lack of features of the plugin.

Scaler remains excellent, I have no criticism at all!

I had been trying to help a friend create a backing track for vocals. So, I purchased an official score. I patiently laid out the set of exact chords for the guitar part inside the Scaler pattern arranger. So far so good.

And then, doh!!! I suddenly realised… VG-Silk is created as an instrument that will take a single midi note and replay a chord. So it’s a complete waste of time, and utterly counterproductive, to try to feed it complete “chords” because it will just get confused.

I then read the manual for VG-Silk. I kinda wish I hadn’t! There’s a section explaining the extended chords available inside the plugin. First though, here’s the opening bars of the song:

Em7; A7#5; Ab7; G9; C6; Eb9; Ab9#5; D7#5; G7#5; C; B7sus … and so on.

A beautiful sequence indeed, and fed into a different instrument, it sounds lovely. BUT!!!

some of these chords aren’t even available inside VG-Silk. Those that are (and yes, substitutions would just about work) are more complicated to play than if I’d learned the keyboard and just play the actual chord!! Trying to creat Em7 in VG-Silk takes four fingers.

Yes, we’re in the Scaler plugin forum, not the Juiilard Academy or Royal Music School. As a graduate thereI’d be expected to play this stuff in my sleep. I was trying to use technology to help me make music.

For “jamming” sure, VG-Silk still sounds quite believable, but “built by guitarists for guitarists” ? C’mon, they’re having a laugh surely?

All this said, your workflow and methods remain interesting and informative, but personally I need to continue my search for a decent-sounding nylon guitar VST. I suspect I’m going to end up back in Kontakt/NI. They’re pricey, but for a reason IMO :slight_smile:

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76

Frankly speaking, I don’t give a damn of the theory :rofl:
and I am very, very happy I don’t need music to earn my living
I play for fun and nothing else matters

77

Unless you aren’t very skilled at keyboard, I am afraid you’ll have to buy, and learn to play, the real stuff

I had the 2 NI Sunburst and the Orangetree blues guitar: well, the sounds are great because even scratches are sampled :grin:, but you don’t have any control on the riffs, and they are quite scarce for the high price IMHO

You can certainly play them manually, but to use che chords and all the articulations, you must be very skilled at keyboards, having possibly 3 hands (not very common nowadays) or better 3 hand + a pedal

My 2 cents of an axe :grinning:

78

I agree with both what you wrote. Yes they are pricey and, yes, that is for a reason. Kontakt/NI are superior to most of other instruments on the market. During the Summer Sales, I bought a few of them for 50% off and when I pay 50 bucks for such good instruments, this is worth every penny.
Don’t forget that several times a year there are periods of quite a substantial rebates, very often 50% off so just arm with the patience and maybe in a few weeks there will be rebates. At the latest on Black Friday, but I believe this will happen earlier.

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79

I own about six guitars, but while I may not exactly be ‘too lazy’ to play them, in fact my interest in DAW lies largely in how and whether one can substitute a physical instrument - the limitations of using a keyboard accepted.

There’s a lot of additional mucking about when recording an acoustic guitar, including mic and mic placement, let alone the editing of the resulting file.

So, there’s as much a “proof of principle” involved here as anything else.

I would also just add that IMHO, while EDM and other electronic music genres do have their own demands and limitations, it strikes me that a lot of these more difficult nuances occur when dealing with more ‘acoustic’ treatments of tunes, and in which there’s a lot more “room” for things to breathe.

80

I shall indeed remain patient.

My experience with them to date hasn’t quite reflected this though. Things may change. I bought their “session horns” a while back. Fantastic! But, thinking of upgrading to the full brass, they kept tempting me with discounts. When I passed (I do not have a money tree in my garden), the price went back up to full, and has stayed there ever since.

However, we like to live in hope :slight_smile: